I do not think any kind of special collar or restraint device will help.

I find it intersting that you do not care for the martingale collar becasue it is too much like a chain yet if you look at the website for the canny collar it looks like it acts in the smae manner. It goes on the same area and tightens.

I also find it disturbing that you would rather use something "humane" and have the dog pull and risk injury rather than use something "inhumane" and have the dog not pull and avoid injury. That being said nothing you put on your dog will work unless you train the dog. I have seen the so called humane buckle collars being used to hold a dogs front two feet off the ground b/c it would not listen. I would saw the chain collar that I saw used that never closed on the dog much more humane. Anything can be used to be inhumane.

Humans put too much human emotion/empathy on dogs and have failed as owners. It is the persons job to step up and take the role as caretaker and leader and set bounderies and discipline. There is a difference between discipline and abuse. The number of dogs in humane societies that are there because of lack of training/discipline is unacceptable.

>>>KP's Response:

Hi Anonymous,
I agree with you about the boundaries, discipline, and training. However, some dogs, because of their mistreatment in the past and because of their strength, are a bit harder to train, even when you have the knowledge and the best of intentions. Such is the case with Dexter. I'm no pushover (at all), but I've been working with him for several years, and we're still not there yet. That's why I asked for help.
I don't think the martingale collar would work on Dexter because it would tighten around his neck and cause him to pull harder and maybe even harm him, similar to a choke collar. I'm not sure about the Canny Collar yet--I've put in a call to my veterinary chiropractor to ask him. However, I do know that it doesn't tighten around the neck--it pulls the muzzle downward, which is very different. It's supposed to have a calming effect. The big question is whether it's safe for his neck. It's probably not, so in that case, I'll end up getting an Anxiety Wrap and experimenting with that (in addition to tweaking my training methods). Wish me luck!
KP

Anonymous :
I do not think any kind of special collar or restraint device will help.

Posted by Anonymous | April 7, 2008 4:36 PM

That was me.

I do not like the way the Canny Collar looks. It looks like it pulls back towards the eyes and down while the strap under the chin is pulled upwards. That gives very conflicting messages. It still pulls the head up. By it self is not a problem but if a dog lunges with it can cause injury.

Before you start using expensive gadgets look at the messages you send your dog. When you see another dog do you get tense and show him that there is something to worry about? I would also start with some obedience training and desensitization.

The 2nd Anonymous again:)

If you go to the Canny Collar website under FAQ's they advise against using this product or any head collar on a dog with neck/vertebral problems. I'm guessing it is b/c first when the head is pulled down in pulls the neck and second in order to put pressure on the nose there has to be some pressure on the neck since that is where the leash and attachments are. The nose is attched to the head wich is attached to the neck. They do not work in isolation.

I think it is a good idea to ask the vet about you specific dogs condition and judge for yourself.

Again, it comes down to training. Good luck with the training.

>>>KP's Response:

Thanks, Anonymous.
You are probably right. I should focus on tightening up the training, and I think I'll also order the Anxiety Wrap. Dexter really loves deep massage, so he probably will benefit from the wrap, as anxiety is his core issue. When I walk him, I try to be very matter-of-fact and I don't freak out. I block his view of the other dog, get him to sit, praise him, and then attempt to move on, but sometimes he can be pretty relentless about resuming his lunging, and I'm not as strong as I used to be. However, I'm hopeful that I can make additional progress--without resorting to anything painful.
KP

Instead of a sit making him heel might be better. It requires more focus and lets you get away from whatever is bothering him. If he will heel from both sides you can also block his view.

Using a martangle collar properly and carefully MIGHT help you help Dexter. Whatever you do use remember that you are doing the training, not the equipment. Of course make sure he knows what is expected and give a verbal corrction before any physical correction.

>>>KP's Response:

Hi T,
As a matter of fact, I did get the same advice about heelling from someone else as well and have already started doing that again. Ironically, I was doing that with him a while back, but I slacked up for some reason, so this isn't even unfamiliar to him. Wish me luck!
KP

Here are two things Ceasar says, right on his page:

"Dogs become aggressive out of frustration and dominance. The frustration comes from a lack of exercise, and the dominance comes from a lack of calm-assertive leadership."

What about fear? Fear is the number one cause of defensive behavior in dogs, according to most animal behaviorists. Do you really believe that your dog dexter is feeling frustration, and trying to be a jerk and "dominate" other dogs he encounters on leash? Do you really think that this strategy makes any sense, from an evolutionary standpoint? Or do you think your dog is afraid, because he is on a leash and he knows he can not escape?

We can choose to love dogs, respect them, and learn all about them... or we can dominate and suppress them, using tools like the illusion collar and pinching and looming.

"How can you tell if your dog is the pack leader? It’s simple: if she jumps on you when you arrive home, she is the pack leader. If she jumps on your guests, she is making sure that these new arrivals also know she is in charge?"

When my dog jumps up, I know that he is doing this because it is a normal, highly reinforcing canine greeting behavior. He is saying "hello! i'm happy to see you!" Is your dog a slave who needs to be taught "who is in charge."? Do you really believe this KP? Do you really think that your dogs are sitting around all day plotting how best to stage a coup of the house? Or do you think they are thinking about how they can best experience relief and pleasure? I know I'd rather a dog who is my working partner, who has been taught that its more rewarding to sit than to jump up. Also, DOGS DON'T LIVE IN PACKS. When given the choice, they don't live in groups. They are scavengers, they aren't wolves, they are dogs. What's so bad about being a dog that we need to pretend they are something they aren't. Would you study a zebra to learn about horses, or a lion to learn about house cats? If dogs are scavengers, which they are, they don't live in packs. It isn't to their advantage. MOST IMPORTANTLY: Wolves regurgitate food for their babies, the babies stay home longer... dogs don't do this. Wolves live in family units, dogs have litters of often more than one sire, and then they raise the pups alone. Dogs don't form packs. So the pack model/ hierarchy model is grossly innacurate when dealing with them.

It makes me sick to think of giving a dog a "correction." I deal with teaching both the family pet, and re-teaching dogs deemed "aggressive." I do not administer corrections. I manage the dogs' behavior, by preventing them from rehearsing the undesirable, and then teach them a new response.

I highly doubt you could find me a case where Ceasar doesn't use pain as motivation, and where the result is a happy dog.

We already know that Ceasar used pain as a motivation for Kane, and he wasn't happy so far as we know.

So, I challenge you to find me a case where the dog isn't motivated by pain and fear, and where the end result is a happy dog.

>>>KP's Response:

Gia,
I can't speak for Cesar Millan, but my guess would be that he doesn't consider fear-biting as aggression at all since it's in a category unto itself and stems from a completely different motivation.
I can't read Dexter's mind, but I believe he suffers from anxiety and acts accordingly. BTW, I received the Anxiety Wrap and put it on him. He was OK for about five minutes, then because desperate to get it off. Very disappointing. :(
Dogs enjoy having a strong leader because it takes the pressure of leading off them. My dogs love it when I take charge, and most of the time, they go around looking happy and calm, which is comfortable for them and for me.
I think all your talk about wolves and dogs not living in packs is a red herring. It's irrelevant. The fact is that when you have a house full of dogs, you've got a pack and dogs relate to that pack in a certain way. It doesn't matter whether they do it in the wild. They do it at home, and that's what we're dealing with.
I don't have any problem with correcting dogs as long as it's done in a humane, calm fashion. We all get corrections in life. Every one of us. Even as adults. If you run a red light, you're going to get a correction. What's the big deal about that? Dogs are not so fragile that they can't stand being corrected when they're out of line. Maybe you think "correction" means whacking them on the head or something, but that's ridiculous. A correction can be a simple sound. Which is what Cesar mostly uses. His signature "Ch-ch" sound, which his mother used with him when he was a child, is very effective and not the least bit painful or scary. You need to lighten up a little, Gia.
KP

"The fact is that when you have a house full of dogs, you've got a pack and dogs relate to that pack in a certain way. It doesn't matter whether they do it in the wild. They do it at home, and that's what we're dealing with."

I think that learning about what a dog prefers (living with one other dog or no other dogs, tops) is very important. We should learn all about the natural habits of our animals, so that we can better provide for them. If we understand that dogs don't live in packs, what behaviors they do and don't have, we can begin to better understand their language. Animals that NATURALLY live in packs or herds have a hierarchy. Animals that live in family units and animals that are solitary do not have this hierarchy, and so are not evolved to have hierarchical behavior. Instead, they have SURVIVALIST behavior. This is "every man for himself" or "he who is most driven at the moment wins" behavior. If we recognize that dogs are not pack animals, then we can realize why they are acting the way they are. If we look at dogs from a "trying to survive" as opposed to "trying to be boss" standpoint it really opens up our eyes to their behavior. I encourage you, for one week, to look at your dogs from a survivalist as opposed to alpha/beta view. The question to ask is "How is my dogs' behavior right now related to survival." If you do this, you might see that all behavior of dogs is related to their own survival.

"I don't have any problem with correcting dogs as long as it's done in a humane, calm fashion."

Sure. But Cesar corrects dogs mainly using choke collars, hitting (please see the Patti Labelle episode for hitting) and PINCHING combined with the "Che Che" sound. The reason why "che che" is so effective is because its been paired with a pinch to the neck. Because dogs don't understand the English language (unless we teach them it one word at a time) how can they possibly understand what "che che" means? They respond for two reasons: 1. It startles them, and then they redirect their attention to something else OR 2. Its been paired with something negative (a pinch) so it becomes a CONDITIONED PUNISHER. Cesar uses the latter, and you use the former.

So yes, it works. It only takes a few trials to make any sound a conditioned punisher. I prefer to teach my dogs a stop cue. I can't have dogs that startle at noises, because we plan on doing search and rescue work, and because I don't want to ever startle my dog. I would rather give him information he understands. I use "hey hey" said in a pleasant voice or a clap clap of the hands, which he knows mean, "turn to Gia, and stop whatever you are doing" Then I can give him further instruction or, release him.

Take Dexter for example. If dogs REALLY understood the concept of "leader" why is Dexter having this problem? If he "knew" you were his "leader" wouldn't he see that you were calm in the face of other dogs on walks, and act accordingly? Wouldn't he know that he could defer to you, and didn't have to freak out on the leash? If he was capable of the mental thought process required to understand a concept of a boss or leader, he wouldn't be freaking out. But he doesn't understand, he is concerned for himself and his survival first and foremost, and acts accordingly. He doesn't know whether you will protect him from this strange dog, and he isn't going to wait around to find out. This is because dogs don't have a sense of leader, they can't 100% trust you with their lives.

Ceasar's way of training your dog would be suppression. He would teach your dog that it is WRONG to defend himself. He would probably "correct" him via choke chain when he became defensive. Eventually, your dog would not be defensive, and not react to other dogs. But would he be cured? I don't think so. He would still be fearful, but quietly fearful, and would not react. This is what learned helplessness is.

>>>KP's Response:

Gia,
You really have a very black-and-white attitude about all this. Our companion dogs come from all different backgrounds and genetic strains, so there's a wide range of possibility when it comes to behavioral traits and personalities. I can tell you that among the many combinations of dogs in my household over the last 28 years, there have most definitely been hierarchies. I've never encouraged it, and I've often discouraged it, but I'm not going to deny what I can clearly see in front of my very eyes. Anyway, I really don't think that your survivalist theory is incompatible with a hierarchy theory. Why can't dogs appreciate their place in the pack while simultaneously trying to do what they feel they have to do in order to survive? Those two mental states are not mutually exclusive.
Your statements about Cesar Millan continue to be rife with inaccuracies, and I wish you would stop. He most certainly does not always pair his "Ch-ch" sound with a physical correction. That is just irresponsible for you to say that because it's not true. Many dogs respond very well to a simple sound like that, and there's nothing startling about it. In fact, it's a soft sound, and it's much milder than the hand-clapping that you do!
Dexter had a very traumatic first year of life, so he is not a good example of normal behavior. His fear and anxiety while on the leash and in the presence of a barking dog are still unfortunately intense enough to override his feelings of security with my leadership. We continue to work on this, but the fear that he learned as a puppy is still stronger than his confidence in my leadership in that particular situation. It's frustrating and very sad, but it doesn't mean that he doesn't see me as his pack leader the rest of the time.
And there's no reason why a dog has to intellectualize a concept like leadership in order to function in a pack. You underestimate dogs' capabilities.
Please don't try to second-guess what Cesar would do in any given situation. You have shown again and again that you are watching his show through the filter of your own prejudice so let him speak for himself.
KP

Still, KP, where is an episode of his show where he isn't using PHYSICAL corrections, and where the dog is still responding, happily? Please, I'd love to see it. Proove me wrong.

Of course there have been what you have interpreted as hierarchies. We are humans, and like to explain things within human terms. Every dog has a different combination and intensity of drives and sensitivities, and ways of expressing them. Perhaps one of your dogs growls and snaps when approached by other dogs. Ceasar would say this dog is being "dominant", while I and the rest of the scientific community would say the dog has a space sensitivity, and has learned that barking and snapping REDUCES the social pressure. Perhaps you might say that one of your dogs who runs out the front door first is "alpha". I would say that dog is most driven to enjoy the outside at the moment. You might say that a dog is being "dominant" if they growl and try to take another dogs' toy. I would say that the dog is driven to obtain the toy, so much that they are willing to risk pain to get it. They aren't making a ploy to be leader, they live very much in the moment and react to things as they come up.

"He most certainly does not always pair his "Ch-ch" sound with a physical correction. That is just irresponsible for you to say that because it's not true. "

I never said that he always pairs it. I said that it only takes one or two pairings of this noise with a physical correction in order to teach the dog that that noise predicts pain. It becomes a conditioned punisher. If you'd like to prove me wrong, please find an episode where he never pairs the "ch ch" with a physical correction. I would like to see this episode.

The clap clap that I use may be more loud than the "ch ch" and thats because if my dog is about to run into a porcupine when he is off leash, I need to have something that is loud. To teach him his stop cue, I pair the clap clap with his name. His name always means "something wonderful is going to happen" and so he turns to me. The clap clap becomes a conditioned reinforcer, which causes him to turn away from and stop whatever he is doing, and wait for further instruction.

I would encourage you to open your mind, and read books by other traineres and behaviorists. I read Ceasar's book and watched some of his episodes for this reason. It is important that dog owners learn basic dog behavior and calming signals, and how animals learn. You should try reading "Don't Shoot the Dog" by Karen Pryor, Calming Signals by Rugaas, and Dogs by the Coppingers. These are non-biased books, which simply show results of research in the field, not opinions.

Also, It sounds like you need to desensitize dexter to wearing a shirt. I would put it on him, and then give him a kong full of peanut butter and kibble or canned food. I would take it off before he is done with his toy, and repeat this several times before leaving it on him for any length of time.

>>>KP's Response:

Gia,
I told you months ago what I meant by "alpha" in my household, but you obviously didn't read it or don't remember it: I have two alpha girls in my household. One for the big dogs and one for the little dogs. They are not aggressive or snappy in any way. They simply radiate dominance through their sheer presence without even doing anything. They walk into the room and the other dogs simply respect them. And I walk into the room and they respect me. It has more to do with how you perceive yourself and convey that to others through your thoughts and body language, which is something that Cesar talks about a lot.
Exactly how many Dog Whisperer episodes have you watched, Gia? I doubt if it's more than three. Otherwise, you would know that in many episodes, he never even touches the dog at all. He doesn't do any more than say, "Ch-ch." Which to me is way better and less startling than the clapping that you do. It's a gentle sound, whereas clapping is loud and sharp. If you want to call saying "Ch-ch" abusive, then we just simply are on two different wavelengths and will never see eye to eye.
In fact, I'm done arguing with you. You don't listen. You just keep pushing and pushing and trying to put words and deeds into other people's and dogs' mouths and demanding that I read this or that, when you have no idea what I've already read. I don't have time to go round and round in circles with you, so let's call a truce, shall we?
KP