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I could really use some good advice and creative ideas right now. I mentioned recently that my rambunctious, muscle-bound drama queen, Dexter, had started limping on his right front leg as a result of a misalignment in his neck and that the veterinary chiropractor had fixed him right up.
Well, that lasted about two weeks, and then one night, I was walking him and Rowdy late at night, when we unexpectedly came upon a very aggressive chained golden retriever. He and Dexter have always been mortal enemies, so we've always kept our distance from him, but this time, we got caught off-guard and found ourselves only a few feet away from him. Dexter went into red alert and instantly started lunging. Normally, I walk him alone, so it was pretty scary to have this happen with Rowdy along since I didn't want there to be any deferred aggression directed toward Rowdy. So I quickly jerked him back (he was wearing a front-leash attachment Sense-ation harness), got him to sit down and look at me, facing away from the golden retriever, gave him a treat, and prepared to cross the street to put some distance between us and the golden, when suddenly he whipped around and started lunging again and we had to repeat the whole process all over again. This happened three times before we finally got away from the golden retriever.
And wouldn't you know it―the next day, Dexter was limping again! Back we went to the chiropractor for an adjustment. I explained what had happened and asked if he had any suggestions for avoiding this scenario in the future, other than being more careful about where, when, and with whom Dexter walks on the leash. (He's fine off the leash, such as at the beach or the dog park.) My veterinary chiropractor gave a response that made me pretty unhappy. He said that chiropractically, a prong (or pinch) collar was the least harmful. Apparently, it leaves the discs and vertebrae and spinal cord alone but stops a dog from pulling by pinching the skin. "He'll only lunge one more time, and then he'll walk nicely after that," was about what the vet said. He said that he also had thought they looked like torture devices when he first saw them but had gradually been won over, and now his black lab wears one when they go walking. He explained that the prongs are supposed to simulate a mother dog's teeth on her puppy's neck, because that's how she would discipline her puppy.
Still, you're getting the dog to walk nicely by inflicting pain. I just can't see putting one of those things around Dexter's neck. I would probably burst into tears doing it! I can just hear him yelping after that first lunge and picture the confused, scared look on his face. But at the same time, I don't want him to keep throwing his neck out, now that it seems to have become his Achilles' heel. There must be a better idea out there somewhere.
By the way, Haltis aren't an option―my vet said that they're bad for Dexter's neck, too, and I doubt that I could ever get one on him anyway, as hypersensitive and hyperactive as he is. I've tried a backpack, which helped somewhat, taking the edge off his reactivity, but that's not quite enough to prevent him from lunging. I've used treats extensively―giving him a treat every time he turns his attention to me. I've used the "stop and go" technique, planting my feet and stopping all forward motion each time he starts pulling and then rewarding him each time he slacks up on the leash. I have specific language I use to encourage him to turn his attention to me (don't ask). I've used body-blocking techniques, blocking his view of the barking dog. Yet I've still been unsuccessful at preventing the initial lunging, and we've been working on this for more than four years. (He's much better than he was at the outset, but everything is relative, of course.) The good part is that I can calm him down pretty quickly. I just can't seem to prevent him from launching in the first place.
The thing about Dexter is that he is extremely sensitive to the sound of another dog barking (as well as other sounds). Recently, I've been able to desensitize him via the beagle in the yard behind us who barks incessantly, but while on the leash, a barking dog still puts Dexter on red alert and pumps up his adrenalin, making him want to lunge and go crazy.
I used to think that Dexter's lunging was just my problem because it could take a toll on my joints. But now that the lunging is starting to take a toll on Dexter, too, it's become his problem, and I don't like that one bit. I can't stand to see anyone in my pack in pain.
So if you can think of an alternative to the monstrosity pictured in the accompanying photo, please leave me a comment and tell me what it is. What would you do if Dexter were your dog?
Comments ( 18 )
I'm not a huge fan of prong collars myself. In my opinion, they're last resort. And it looks like you have a last resort problem. If Dexter keeps lunging he could do serious harm to himself. A prong collar does not have to inflict a lot of pain. Of course, research should go into them and in his case, a more gentle kind should be used. At the most, he shouldn't feel a ton of pain, just a small pinch. and if it stops his lunging problem, then there will be less pain in the long run. My suggestion would be to just try it and see what it does. Is there a way you could just avoid the lunging situation altogether?
If anyone else has any ideas I would be interested to hearing about them as well. I've never had this problem before but it would be great for future reference.
Posted by Marie | March 31, 2008 8:13 PM
Posted on March 31, 2008 20:13
I was reading about Dexter and your problem.I have english mastiffs and they are like my childrn(yes I have two children)when my oldest mastiff was about two years old and we would go for a walk he would pull my shoulder out of place and I would have to go to my chiropractor and have it put back in place.my dog was not trying to run away he was just stronger than me and walked faster than me.I put him in doggie school with me along by his side in school .I also thought that the pincher collar looked like some midevil tortcher device .I finally gave in and bought one.I never have to use it on Ben (my oldest mastiff) and he learned to stay close enough to me so he did not send me to the doctor every time we go out.trust me every time I go to the truck he is excited and ready to jump in the back of the truck to ride.the pincher collar saved my behind one time also.I rescued a mastiff bitch and was told she was people,and animal friendly boy did they lie to me.I put the pincher collar on her and thank goodness I did because she jumped the fence after ben and the pincher collar is the only thing that stopped her.It could have been very bad.I think my digs are like my children,they have to learn right from wrong ,when the girls (two legged )were growing up if they were not behaving they ot a spanking when the boys(four legged )act up they have to learn as well.I see all kinds of dogs that have no manners,I can take my mastiffs anywhere and will be told they are very well behaved .You may think it looks awful and so did I but it is alot safer than having something bad happen to your four legged pal.And I love my boys.I had to have the female put down,she would try to kill Ben every time she saw him.with a dog with that much power you cant just give her away and it killed me because mastiffs are a wonderful breed that loves every one and every thing.
ood luck,
skagley
Posted by skagey | March 31, 2008 11:37 PM
Posted on March 31, 2008 23:37
Mmmm...reading your blog a couple of times and having a very strong dog myself who lunges too (nearly dragged me over the meadow this morning) I agree with the other posters, give it a try. You describe the "confused, scared" look you imagine he will have, but what if he doesn't? As the vet says it could resemble his mom correcting him and it might be LESS confusing than other stuff! And dog-logic isn't necessarily human logic...
You would not be hurting him every time you put the thing on, that's up to him! It doesn't hurt if he doesn't lunge, right? I think the aftermath of more health problems with his neck might be more painful (and maybe more confusing?) in the long run.
Please let us know how things work out for the both of you, I've tried a number of things with our dog, the stop at pull, the front-end leash, treats, but still he thinks he can be the boat in a waterski competition ;-). Good luck for both your joints!
Posted by Jess | April 1, 2008 5:09 AM
Posted on April 1, 2008 05:09
have you tried the whistle leash?
there is a leash that whistles whenever it gets taut. so, if the dog is walking fine, no noise. if the dog pulls, there is a whistle.
i dont know if this would stop lunging at another dog, but it might help stop run of the mill pulling.
>>>KP's Response:
Hi Rachel!
Thanks for your suggestion! I'll have to try this. It sounds like it could help a lot, since Dexter kind of goes into a trance when he pulls. Maybe the whistle is just the thing to snap him out of it.
KP
Posted by rachel | April 1, 2008 10:33 AM
Posted on April 1, 2008 10:33
I just started reading your blog about a week ago. I recently found this little dog that was trying to cross a busy street. There were no signs for a lost dog around the neighborhood where I found him and a good thing since I got attached way too quickly and Pepper is now a part of my household.
I don't know much about dogs, I know more about cats since I have two, and as a result I find your blog so interesting! I look forward to all your new posts.
Posted by Jaclyn | April 1, 2008 11:05 AM
Posted on April 1, 2008 11:05
I would NOT use a prong collar, especially on a dog who is behaving in a defensive manner towards reactive dogs. The prong collar will have behavioral consequences on the dog. The pinch collar adds the pain factor into the equation. So, your dog will come to associate not only fear but pain when a strange dog acts in an innapropriate manner. The idea that a prong collar stimulates a mothers teeth is preposterous. A mother has two front canines, not 30 that would enclose a pup's entire neck,with unceasing pressure. Also, the mother might nip, not bite down and apply a painful pressure. Furthermore, a mother dog would not discipline her pup for acting in a defensive manner. As you probably know, your dog is behaving this way on lead because he knows he has no escape, so he feels the need to defend himself. Time and time again a defensive dog has turned into a dog that is a hysterical cujo by the prong collar.
I would try a few things. First, I would work on teaching the dog to stop being reactive on leash. During this process I would really try to walk the same, safe routes with the dog to prevent a rehearsal of the behavior. You might also try the Canny Collar, which is very different from the common head halters your chiropractor knows of. It might take a few weeks to come from the UK but it is well worth it. Here is what the site says about it "he Canny Collar should be thought of more as a dog training collar rather than a headcollar. As the name suggests, a headcollar encompasses the whole of your dog's head. The Canny Collar fits only around the nose, gently guiding from behind the head, so that your dog is less restricted and more comfortable. It also does not jerk the head sideways (which in some cases can cause injury to your dog's neck) nor ride up into the eyes. As the Canny Collar operates from both sides of your dog's head, gentle pressure is all that is needed for it to work. It is a kind, safe and effective method of dog training." When your dog pulls, it will put a gentle pressure on the nose, but from behind the head, and attached to a padded collar. The neck does not get jerked, and the pressure provides a calming effect.
It is not like the traditional head collars at all, and so doesn't cause pain on the dog, and won't damage the neck either.
I wouldn't take training advice from a vet or animal chiropractor, either (Unless they had extensive behavioral training.)
There are some other options too, as far as management tools go. One is the calming cap made by premier. It basically limits his vision, making him more calm. Then, you could try an anxiety wrap, which is a spandex pressure suit for dogs. It works for some but not for others, and is rather pricey. You could make your own with a spandex shirt, too. Lastly, I like to carry a circular elastic band with me at all times. If you place it around the dogs neck and nose in a figure eight, it presses down on a nerve in the face, and gives a calming effect. It can be used for 10 minutes at a time, but, it does make the dog want to lay down and rest.
As far as rehabilitation goes, I would check out the books Click To Calm, and anything Pam Dennison who specializes in this sort of thing. Her book is called How to Right a dog gone wrong, and she also has a new one out about rehabbing city dogs too. You could be doing things that unwittingly promote your dogs defensive behavior, and these books will help you analyze this and make a good training plan.
The prong collar will not teach your dog not to react to other dogs. It will teach your dog that other dogs equal fear AND pain. The prong collar does teach dogs Not to pull when its on, but the issue here isn't a pulling problem. It is a defensiveness and fear problem.
Hope that helps
>>>KP's Response:
Hi Gia!
These sound like great ideas. I was already thinking about the anxiety wrap, but I've never heard of the Canny Collar, the Calming Cap, or the elastic band worn in a figure eight. The Canny Collar really sounds perfect for this situation. I think I'll look into that one right away.
I would love to take a "safe route" every time we walk, but unfortunately, my neighborhood is extremely dog-intensive, so there really are no safe routes.
That's a really good point about the mother dog--how her teeth are configured and how she wouldn't discipline her puppy for being defensive. Also, the point about associating the pain with the other dogs. Dexter would be a perfect candidate for becoming hysterical if he were handled in a scary, painful manner.
Thanks so much for your suggestions. I'm glad I asked this question!
KP
Posted by Gia | April 1, 2008 12:20 PM
Posted on April 1, 2008 12:20
Don't use the prong collar! Pain is an unpredictable teacher.
What I've found works with my dog to stop continued barking or other unwanted behavior, is to do something that startles or surprises her. I usually speak softly to my dog, but one time when her barking annoyed me, I screamed "STOP" at the top of my voice. She hit the ground with all four paws out and her chin on the ground.
If you were to start jumping around or doing something that Dexter found unusal and alarming, he would stop whatever else he was doing, I think; but I suspect you'll get better suggestions too.
Posted by Bob | April 1, 2008 3:21 PM
Posted on April 1, 2008 15:21
Have you tried a Martingale collar? They're designed for sighthounds and work in a manner similar to a traditional choke chain but they are much, much gentler on the neck. When he starts lunging, just stand still, and he'll probably stop once he feel the pressure on his neck. Since they're usually made of nylon it will be more comfortable than a chain.
Posted by Shannon | April 1, 2008 5:21 PM
Posted on April 1, 2008 17:21
Gia,
Just out of curiosity, where did you learn about your dog training methods? So far I really like all of your ideas and opinions. Do you have any links you could send me? Or even some book names for me to read? Thanks!
Posted by Marie | April 1, 2008 5:44 PM
Posted on April 1, 2008 17:44
Well, I haven't been here in a couple months, so hopefully you remember me;).
I disagree with your views. It IS supposed to simulate a mother, and if that's fine in nature, what's wrong with it now? It doesn't hurt the dog, so there's really no problem. Also, if the vet thinks it's fine, then why not? Just because you have some radical views on animals doesn't mean that you can put your dog in danger.
Posted by Aly | April 4, 2008 3:14 PM
Posted on April 4, 2008 15:14
Aly:
You've made it very clear that you disagree with KP's views, and now it seems like you're simply disagreeing to be contary. If you really believe that sharp, steel prongs that encircle a dog's entire neck are a legitimate stimulation of a correction from a mother dog who has, as Gia correctly stated, two front canines, there's nothing anyone can do about it, but that doesn't make you right. I hope that at some point in your life you realize the importance of educating yourself before you start stating your opinion as fact. You are a very hateful, angry little girl and I truly feel sorry for you and any animals you live with.
Posted by Amanda | April 6, 2008 5:29 PM
Posted on April 6, 2008 17:29
Don't use this collar! i wouldn't dream of putting something like that on my dog! i don't have any advice on what to do but i suggest finding another alternative.
Posted by RG | April 7, 2008 7:49 PM
Posted on April 7, 2008 19:49
I have a pitbull and we have been leash training him, he "hates" the halti, a trainer that wasn't so good that we paid alot!!!! of money for, that was supposed to know pits recommended it. But we just have this harness type thing, I can't remember the name of it e-mail me and I will find out, but I've bought two of them so far it like pulls under their arms if they pull too hard and it really works great at controlling him. Otherwise he would just drag me along where ever he would like to go. I had one for my other pit may she rest in peace so that I could walk both of them at the same time and it makes him more managable. I just tie a loop in the middle of the leash so it shortens so I can keep him closer to me and I seem to be able to control him pretty well. He has the same issue's with barking dogs! It's like the noise makes him crazy but with this harness I can acutally pull him away from the situation and then once I have control of him he moves on like nothing has happened. I bought them all at Wal Mart, I haven't been able to find them anywhere else. I had to buy new one because when we kenneled him they left it on him and he got it off and chewed one of the buckles. If I would have had the harnesses on them when I lost Babygirl then it may not have happened. I just had regular collars to take them to the bathroom and the neighbors barking dog caused the male to lunge and the female went off the other direction then turned to look at me and it flipped right off of her (I always check them too) she took off into the road and I don't need to say anymore. I now use the harness all the time. When we get up in the morning and go for a walk I leave it on him until we go to bed at night. Hope that helps!
KP's Response:
Hi DeeAnna!
Is this a Sporn harness or maybe a Holt? I'm using the Holt again right now but it's not ideal for pulling (it doesn't go directly under the armpits), so I bet you've got Sporn harnesses. I've used them in the past, and I know they do help with pulling. But I always worried that that heavy plastic buckle on the top was digging into my dogs' shoulderblades--have you seen that? Maybe they've even changed them a bit by now. I should look into that. Thanks for your suggestion!
KP
Posted by DeeAnna Wardle | April 11, 2008 12:38 PM
Posted on April 11, 2008 12:38
Amanda-
I am not a "very hateful, angry little girl". I have a moth who uses a prong collar, and I feel like it isn't wrong to have them. They work well, and it doesn't hurt them. IT gives a pinch similar to what their mothers would give them as puppies. It would be in their instincts to make a correction. Also, I feel like PETA is hateful. They give money to arsonists each year and they euthanize many animals. And that's not my opinion. It's FACT. I am not just trying to be contrary, these are my views. This is America, and I can voice them. Otherwise, this would be unconstitutional.
>>>KP's Response:
Hi Aly,
Did you know that what you just wrote is libelous and that you could be sued for it if you were an adult? If I had your mother's phone number, I would call her right now and tell her that her daughter's foul mouth and reckless attitude is going to get her in trouble with the law. Luckily, you're just a little girl who only repeats what she hears instead of really researching the facts.
KP
Posted by Aly | April 12, 2008 3:31 PM
Posted on April 12, 2008 15:31
Marie: I am a Third Way Trainer. It's a very dog friendly positive method that is different from a lot of the other positive styles of training. Chris Bach is the creator.
Let me know if you got this message, I know its been a while.
Posted by Gia | April 17, 2008 11:49 PM
Posted on April 17, 2008 23:49
Thanks Gia,
I have never heard of Chris Bach before or Third Way Training. But I will certainly look into it!
Posted by Marie | April 18, 2008 1:00 PM
Posted on April 18, 2008 13:00
I don't know how effective prong collars really are. My mom got one for her dog to stop him from lunging, but it didn't work. He's a chow chow, so he might not even feel the collar through all his fur! Still, if you do get the collar, get the kind that has rubber caps at the end of the prongs so they can't pierce the skin. That way, the pain will go no further than a pinch.
Posted by Becky | April 21, 2008 9:35 AM
Posted on April 21, 2008 09:35
im thinking of getting a pincher collar for my GSD and would like too know where i can get one and if they really do work?
KP's Response:
Hi Kevin,
Please don't get one. Read my post 'Prong Collars, My Arse' and the comments that follow, and you'll see that prong collars really are a bad idea.
KP
Posted by KEVIN MCNELIS | May 2, 2008 7:45 AM
Posted on May 2, 2008 07:45