I used a crate with my dogs when they were young because the "experts" told me it was the right thing to do. Of course, they mentioned that dogs are den animals, etc. I knew something was just terribly wrong with it, though. Luckily, I have well-adjusted dogs, and I never left them there for extended periods.

I now advise people to use it only during potty training and very sparingly. For example. put the puppy in there with a toy when you have to shower or some time like that when you can't keep your eye on her. Otherwise, it's your job to play with her and take her out often.

Am I wrong in this advice? What if I have to run out shopping or something quick like that and my pup isn't fully house broken yet? Don't you think it's OK for those short periods to confine her?

>>>KP's Response:

Hi Rick,
No, I don't think it's OK.
KP

That odd. My dogs crates are always left open and they CHOOSE to go in on their OWN! Maybe I should not allow that since you seem to suggest that you do not like the idea I should deprive my dogs of one of their favorite areas.

why do you think dogs dig holes and make burrows?

Granted I agree extended periods of confinement( around 4 hours is maybe a good rule of thumb). You suggestion that dogs never be crated only goes against a natural instinct and need as well as will potentionally add to the dogs at shelters because of the frustration between the dogs and humans when it comes to training. Dogs need boundries like children and lack thereof adds to "deliquints."

Also, there has been several reports of the inaccuracy of "Wikipedia" so you may want to find a more reliable source.

>>>KP's Response:

Hi Sara,
I'm afraid that you didn't understand the post or maybe you just read the first sentence. Please go back and read the whole thing, and maybe then you'll find that what you've written has already been addressed by Lindsay.
Thanks!
KP

I am curious.

Why should we put any value into your uneducated opinion ("The author is not and does not represent herself to be a qualified dog trainer, behaviorist, psychologist, veterinarian, dietician, herbalist, or homeopath"), given that you are posing as a friend of dogs yet you are involved with an organization that opening supports the mass genocide of an entire breed? The dogs that need our compassion and understanding the most are not the show dogs, but the underdogs. Just so we are clear, you are against crate training but you support euthanizing innocent puppies?

I realize that you are not going to allow this comment to be posted publicly but that does not mean that my point is not valid.

"This makes my heart ache."

File under: Pit Bulls make great family pets, PETA supports murdering family pets but not chickens, KP supports euthanizing puppies

>>>KP's Response:

Hi Amy,
You sound really hostile. Of course I'm going to publish your comment--why wouldn't I?
The post that you're commenting on consists almost entirely of a quote from a book written by an expert in his field, so it's irrelevant what my qualifications are. If you don't like what Steve Lindsay has to say, you're free to disagree with him, but I think he's eminently qualified to make his statements.
I agree with you about the underdogs, but I take it further: All dogs need our compassion because they are all vulnerable.
What PETA supports is eliminating animal pain and suffering. If you are so vehemently against euthanasia, why pick on PETA? There are animal shelters and veterinarians all across the country that euthanize dogs and puppies for many reasons. Please remember that eutanasia is completely painless, and it's certainly preferable to making a dog spend his or her entire life in a cage in some no-kill shelter. Wouldn't you agree?
KP

Dogs are pack animals – as they are genetically wolves. In nature, wolves are never alone unless the pups have reached puberty and feel like leaving the family to find a spouse in order to start their own pack. Our dogs however are spayed and neutered and therefore do not feel this urge. As far as studies of wolves have shown – dogs and other animals are rarely in a situation where they cannot walk or can barely turn around. The only exceptions are maybe animals on factory farms. For that very reason – the EU is fading out battery cages and the US is fading out veal crates. These environments are simply unethical.

This reminds me however of an experience that will stay with me for ever. Once when visiting a factory farm – I opened the door of a battery cage. The poor birds did not want to come out – even when all the humans were out of sight. They were broken characters and it took them months to become socialized again.

We own a huge crate. All our dogs can fit into it. In fact, even my spouse and I can fit into it. We call it our “home”. It took us some time to get them accustomed to our crate but now they are fine with it. I am confused as to why we should now train them to fit into a smaller crate within the big crate? The crates that are apparently made for dogs are, in our humble opinion, so small that they cannot even walk or play in it with their brothers and sisters. What is the point?

We would rather housetrain our dogs than to try to make them comfortable in an unnatural environment? We rather housetrain them than getting ourselves used to seeing our loved ones in battery crates?

As we are responsible care-takers – we have dog-proved our house. Just as I assume people with children make sure there are no dangerous substances lying around. Locking a child up in a cupboard in order to protect her or him sounds like missing the point? Put the dangerous things in the cupboard and let the child run free. “Things” do not have claustrophobic feelings and therefore have no problem with limited space. Animals and children on the other hand are speculated to have feelings.

Since the famous Milgram experiment – we all know what "normal" humans are capable of doing to loved ones as long as an authority figure tells them that it is “ok”. If the authority figure tells them that it is “necessary” – humans are known to do atrocities. It is never too late to read up on this famous study: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

BTW - it is never too late to learn about proper kids or dogs training that does not involve physical pain or discomfort. A relationship is always better when it build on trust and real respect and not fear. This is why in many countries - hurting children physically is actually prohibited. Just like shock collars and torture are outlawed in eg Europe etc.

Do not make anybody do anything that you would not want to be done to you?

Great post! I agree that it is so unhealthy to crate dogs. I think some people misunderstand the whole den thing. Dens and crates are TOTALLY different. One of them you can leave when you want to. The other you cannot. What is so difficult to understand?

p.s. Amy Kincaid, KP is not "posing" as a friend to animals...she IS one. I invite you to discuss your topic on the Forum available for just this purpose

I feel that crating has its uses as long as it is not over used. Just like a dog needs to be in the house or outdoors, but not always outdoors or always in the house. It's a healthy balance. I crate my dog if I have workers going in and out of my house. The longest I crated him was when he hurt his leg, had surgury and was bandaged. I had to work all day so I kept him in the crate. It was imperative that he rest which he wouldn't running around the backyard or chasing my cats around the house while I was gone.

Hi Karen,
You kept your dog in a crate for the entire workday? Now see, that's animal abuse, plain and simple. I'm sorry, but it just is. You are not looking at things from your dog's point of view. How would you like to be locked in a box for nine hours?
KP

I found all the comments and the article stimulating in the sense that all points can be argued with reasonable view points. I do have to say I have a large dog with a very large crate. I have provided him pillows and a bucket intended for use with horses for him in his crate I only put him in the crate at night to sleep in. His crate is the equivalent to my bedroom as far as furnishings and comfort are concerned. I am forced to utilize the crate at night for his safety and for the safety of others. He was a house dog until he became restless and yearned to be out doors. I am curious as to what you would suggest I do? Should I let him run loose risking him being hit by a car hurting himself? Or to do the unthinkable and hurt a person after all he is an animal and unpredictable? What options does one have when they live in an established area with neighbors to contend with? I would love a positive outcome for everyone because when all is said and actions done we all live on this earth together.

Hi Michelle,
I don't understand why you're crating your dog at night and saying that the only alternative is to let him run loose in the neighborhood. Why can't he sleep in the house at night without being crated?
KP

Crates are wonderful tools to train dogs. Crates keep them safe in the car when we travel and at home to keep puppies out of trouble. OR to lock em up when the meter reader comes (no lawsuits, thanks!). Granted some dogs stress out in crates, then we find alternatives like ex-pens.

I don't about the rest of you, but I'd rather leave my dog in a crate for a few hours with a blanket and toys and come back to my home being in the same shape its in than come back to a dead dog that got into the household cleaners or chewed electrical cords.

I've lived with dogs for over 10 years and crates are GREAT!

Hi Susan,
If you would try puppyproofing your house, you wouldn't come home to any problems. I can vouch for this, having had dogs of all ages for more than 25 years and never having used a crate.
KP

I dont believe any of this!!! I call bullshit on this!!!! I leave my dogs crates open and they CHOOSE to go in them. They grab a bone and chew on it in their crate

Thank you for replying. I would love to have my Deegan in the house at night but my child has allergies and until till she is little older(she's only 18 mon) I try to keep the exposure to a minimum when she is older can take medicine to help her. I also started letting him sleep outside at night because he seemed to prefer being out listening to the neighborhood. Some of my reasons for crating him at night is I have a neighbor who is extremely fearful of him to the point she calls the police and Animal Care and Control on me if I have him off leash in the front lawn or if he approaches the fence in any sort of menacing way. I have tried to socialize the neighbor and Deegan but she will have nothing to do with him. So I fear someone poisoning him or worse him getting out as I know she wouldn't tell me he was loose she would have Animal Care and Control pick him up. My other issue is he is an in tacked male and I fear the lure of a female in heat may be more then the fence could handle.

>>>KP's Response:

Hi Michelle,
Well, I have to say that I think neutering your dog should be the first thing on the agenda. It's not fair to leave dogs intact and intensely frustrated like that. Neutering him will make him more relaxed and calm, and then you won't have to worry that he might escape, and I won't have to worry that he might run off and impregnate a female dog. We've already got enough unwanted puppies in the world. He'll also be less aggressive after he's neutered.
With regard to the allergies, the science of it is that the more sterile a child's environment is, the more likely they are to grow up with allergies and other immune-system imbalances. And the children who grow up with cats and dogs and other animals are less likely to end up with allergies. I actually think that, healthwise, you'd be doing your child a favor to keep your dog close, rather than separating them, as long as your dog doesn't show any signs of aggression toward the child. (That would be a much bigger problem.)
But if he has to stay outside, couldn't you enlarge the area that he stays in? At least create a fenced-in enclosure that's large enough for him to run around in a little. Or do you have a porch he could have free run of? Or could you just fix your fence so that it's stronger and higher?
But the best would be to let him sleep indoors. I'm sure he hates being outside when the weather's bad.
KP

When I work I leave my two dogs in a large kennel. Its 4'x6'x4' and is inside my house. I dont believe it is crewl or torture for them. They are supplied with food and water as well as blankets and toys to keep themselves active. There is not enough dog proofing that can be done to contain the ammount of damage that they cause. I have tried before and find that kenneling is not inhuman. They are let out and then taken for a walk when I get home. Some people have to use kennels/crates to keep there dogs contained while away. I dont see a problem with this providing that the kennel/crates are large enough for the dog to get up walk around and be able to turn fully. I live in the northeast so leaving them outside is not an option.
Thank you, Karl

>>>KP's Response:

Hi Karl,
How many hours per day are you leaving them confined to such a tiny space? 4'x6'x4' would be too small even if they were Chihuahuas. What kind of dogs are they? I don't believe that you're empathizing with them because if you did, you would recognize that you're not giving them a good life, and you would have to inconvenience yourself in order to improve it. But think about it--just how would you like to be left inside a cage (because that's what it is) about as big as a bathroom all day long? And I assume that you expect them not to relieve themselves while confined in that way? How would you like it if you couldn't go to the bathroom all day? I certainly hope you only work part-time.
If you want a real solution, take your dogs for an hour-long walk before you go to work in the morning. Just get yourself up out of bed a little earlier (that's what I meant by inconveniencing yourself). And then when you leave, instead of confining them, give them something to do, like a Kong stuffed with peanut butter or some other interactive toy. Leave classical music on for them. And then have someone come over mid-day to walk them for 20 minutes. Try it, Karl. I bet you will be able to say goodbye to the "kennel" (a.k.a. "cage").
KP

As long as PETA links to this article I will no longer support them. You cannot protect dogs from everything while you work. Wires, furniture, etc. I am not saying leave them in there for prolonged periods of time. You can have someone let them out for a run at lunch. Dogs sleep how much? Mine sleep about 16 hours per day. AND YES, MY DOGS LOVE THEIR CRATES, ok?
what you are doing here is sending dogs to their graves. People who would otherwise adopt may not do so now because they may believe this garbage about crates and choose not to adopt.
I am trapped in a cubicle for 8 hours per day, my dogs are in their crate 5 hours per day. I have to lock the door for their protection, but on the weekends I do not lock it, and they do not leave the crate. How about that?
Keep your opinions off of PETA and maybe save some dogs lives.

>>>KP's Response:

Hi Chanda,
I'm sorry you feel that way. Obviously, you didn't understand the blog post, if you can still be happy that your dogs "love" their crate. Perhaps you should do a little research about Stockholm syndrome and find out just how psychologically unhealthy it is.
Comparing your situatioin working in a cubicle to dogs locked in a crate is comparing apples and oranges. At work, you are free to get up and go to the bathroom, go outside for a cigarette break or a coffee break, socialize with your coworkers--that's completely different from being locked inside a cage.
And how many hours do you sleep? Seven? How would you like to be locked in a cage while you sleep? See, your comparisons just aren't apt.
Being against crating is not going to get dogs killed--it's just a difference of opinion about training techniques--but frankly, I think many dogs who have to spend all day and/or all night locked in a crate would rather be dead. I know I would.
KP

Fantastic article KP! Having never crated my own family dogs, I've always gotten a queasy feeling when others talk about "crate training" their dogs. A dog should be a member of the family and a companion. To me crating a dog is the same as a person locking a child in their bedroom for hours on end... it's cruel and it doesn't make any sense. In the past I knew a family who would crate their dog for the full workday & it really disturbed me. In the afternoon they would remove the dogs water bowl to prevent it from having "accidents" in the crate when it was penned up again for the night. I nearly cried with relief when they decided they didn't have time for the dog and gave it to an elderly friend. Crate training is for human convenience and is not a benefit to the animal. What about the safety factor as well? If god forbid a dog was crated in a home where there was a fire or gas leak there would be no hope of the animal escaping. It really breaks my heart that convenience is now passing for proper animal care and I hope some of the compassionate people who read your blog will spread the word that crate = cruel.

I also crate one of mine, because she chewed through two lamp cords (fortunately, no power coursing through them since they were on a timer). When not at work, the crate is open and the dog often goes in on her own. It's her "space". She has far less "issues" after four years with me than she did when I got her...after being a puppymill dog. She was terrified of humans; now she is not. But...to anyone who says, "crate them with a toy". We all know it's bad advice to leave kids with toys unattended...same with dogs. Often a choking hazard. Ya never know.

I have lots of disabilities (physical and psychiatric). My husband takes our dog out when he can, before work, at lunch and after work, and long walk at night. I also work, but can't come home for lunch because I work 30 minutes from home.

At first, we just put our dog in the bathroom, which was very easy to puppy-proof. But, cleaning up poop from ALL OVER the bathroom where he tracked it - an 8'x 2' floor area - got a little old. And he would sometimes come in after being outside 20 minutes and NOT going potty, and then do it on the rug.

So, we got the crate and within one week, he quit peeing in the house. We don't get mad about this one spot he goes poo in the basement (semi-finished with carpet). It is easy enough to clean up and not as bad as pee. I recognized early on that crate training is really "bladder control" training.

So, without my husband, I guess I wouldn't be okay to have a pet, since I can't care for it up to your standard? My dog is played with alot, petted alot, loved so much, groomed, does agility in the back yard, has toys galore, but because we have to put him in a crate sometimes for short periods, you think he'd actually rather be dead? Please don't project your own issues onto an entire species. I'm sure my dog is a little distressed, like kids when sent to their rooms, but he can handle it, and all is forgiven/forgotten when I let him out, he goes for a walk, gets a treat, lots of affection, etc.

Because of my disabilities, it would be an hour-long routine of "puppy proofing" my house just to leave for a few hours (or less for the store). Then, another hour to get the things out I need out.

Extremism is why animal rights groups gets a bad name.

Dogs getting Stockholm Syndrome? You're kidding, right? Is there a Free Will versus pack mentality arguement here?

When you leave the door of a crate open it is entirely different than closing it. I'm sure a lot of dogs like them when they know they can come and go as they please. The other thing is that some people leave their dogs in these all the time. I used to live in New Bedford, Massachusetts and I once called the MSPCA because I knew a very active German Shepard puppy in the apartment above me was being left in a crate (one of those made out of hard plastic where the dog could barely stand up and turn around in) for up to 14 hours at a time, maybe even longer. The animal control people told me this was legal if the dog received food in that time. So according to the law this is ok and even if after that long time the dog is fed and then put back in, this is supposed to be ok. I was shocked and I was treated like the bad guy. I bought the owner a playpen which she did use but then she left the dog for up to 25 hours on the weekends (this is a fact). How on earth was the poor dog supposed to hold it in all that time. I totally agree with what this writer has said and I wish the laws would change and stop vilifying genuine people who care. By the I called the Humane Society of the USA and they sided with the animal control people. I never even received a call to let me know the outcome of my call to them.

Chanda,

I agree with you. My dog likes her crate and tends to lay in there quite frequently on her own accord. She is free to roam during the day and night, but I bet if I had a camera up when I am not there she would be in there most of that time with her cat friend.

I also agree that dogs need boundaries just as children do. Granted, you don't put a child in a crate to establish dominance, but you must do that with K-9 friends. The fact is that K-9 are not humans. They exhibit many similar traits, but they are not the same and must be dealt with accordingly.

I see no way around using a crate while potty-training. We don't live in a fantasy world where we don't work, shower, or need a bit of time to ourselves.

>>>KP's Response:

Hi Jenn,
You may not know this, but crates have only been popular for 10 years or so--and only in the U.S. Prior to that, and elsewhere, people housetrained their dogs without crates. So it's simply a matter of whether or not you want to use a humane method or a convenient method. Americans are all about convenience--even at their expense of their own "beloved" dogs, unfortunately. It's very, very sad.
KP

It's so unfortunate that folks like Chanda cannot see past their own ideas. The article provides accurate information that with research can be substantiated. Unfortunately, many people are not able to empathize and thus are not able to understand why crating is inhumane. It is of utmost importance to research the type of care and time it takes to care for a pet BEFORE purchasing one.
Also, it's important to read the article as a whole, not just the parts that 'stick out to you' to realize the huge difference between a crate with a door that is open at all times vs. a locked crate.
Kudos to PETA and any other organization that recognizes that animals feel too!
Respectfully,
Elena

Leaving your dog in a cage while you are working because it has a bandaged leg, I think is reasonable and is not animal abuse. But people need to realize that some people leave their dogs in these all the time. Some dogs that have been rescued could not walk straight but could only walk in circles. Some people do use crates in a reasonable way but there are people who are twisting the truth and using them for their own convenience ie people who want a dog for selfish reasons and don't think of the dog at all and what the dog needs. Unfortunately there are too many people like those around. Also I agree that if a no kill shelter keeps dogs in cages all the time it is not a good shelter but there are plenty of good no kill shelters that don't do this and do walk their dogs. However PETA is right about the misuse of cages.

Back in Europe, the peasants left their dogs outside, usually in their barns. Most educated individuals considered their dogs family members. Naturally, one would not have a family member locked out of the house. I have never even heard of crating dogs until recently. I abhor crating but I also abhor, would never visit a circus, because I cannot tolerate of robbing anyone of his freedom. Also, I am severely claustrophobic. If someone locked me in a cage, for sure, I would immediately die of a heart attack or stroke, just knowing that I cannot get out. I personally could never crate a dog. If the door of a crate is open and the dog can go in and out of the crate and he chooses to go in, that might be OK with me. The dogs in my family are locked in the house when we are working, free to walk from room to room. They have fresh water, toys. They are walked and fed in the morning, and walked and fed at night. While they were pups, I would take time off from school/work to go home and let them out in my lunchtime. In Europe, while growing up, someone was always home. I am not a professional trainer or a professional rescue; the only thing I know about crates is that I do not like them. Pet stores like them, many individuals use them, probably there are situations when one needs to use them, I just do not like them and personally will refrain from using them. As far as allergies and pets, research shows that isolating dogs/cats from children with allergies is worse than having them co-exist. I also do not understand, why have a family pet if the pet is kept outside? Why not just visit others who have pets. “I had to get rid of my dog because my, ‘so and so,’ has an allergy,” one often hears. How can one get rid of a family member? Other solutions must be found. Regarding euthanasia, since none of us were ever euthanized, we really do not know for sure whether it is painful or not to have our heart stopped, our respiratory system shut down, our muscles paralyzed. Looking peaceful may not be a perfect indicator of lack of suffering. If euthanasia is so peaceful and painless how comes so many prisoners thrash around, make grimaces, etc. when being killed? Although I am told by experts that euthanasia must be carried out, I am against euthanasia. In my opinion, taking the lives of others is incompatible with a civilized society. Unfortunately, growing up in a medical family, I was taught early in life that life, all life, is sacred. We do everything to save a human being, even when death would probably be more much more humane, yet we kill billions of healthy sentient beings. This troubles me very, very much.

I said in my last comment that leaving a dog in a crate because it is injured is ok because it was better than what some people do. I just wanted to clarify this. I wouldn't leave a dog in a crate and I don't honestly know if even short term use of crates could be cruel especially if the dog wasn't used to it, it could probably traumatize it and I agree with the Stockholm theory. If you left a human in one of these with the door locked for hours every day for years you would probably find that they would also go back into it when they were freed. We all know this isn't what people really want and would know in this incidence that the abuse caused the person to do what is not natural. I have seen chimps on the tv that were locked up for years not adapt to the outdoors. It was obvious that the abuse caused this and that chimps don't really like to be locked up. So dogs probably do the same and probably even short term use of a crate may not be the best for the dog. However, if someone has a dog with a behavior problem and that dog needs to stay in a crate for a short time every day in order to have a home then it may be the best solution.

Wow, the culture of crating dogs here in the U.S. is so crazy that I can remember when I was looking to adopt a dog a few years ago, many of the people in charge of whether or not I would be able to adopt said that crate training was an absolute must, and acted like it was the only way to train a dog. Anytime someone tells you that there is only one way to do something, or only one solution for a problem, you should be skeptical. Anyway, I did initially crate train my dog, Romeo and he absolutely hated it and I hated it too because it was not hard to see for anyone with a heart or a brain that this is a cruel practice. I stopped crate training him, and after a few months he started going into his crate on his own and he loves it now, so we have 2, which we never ever ever lock. and in response to someone who said dogs are not human.... wow, really, that's incredible information, thanks for enlightening us! Since dogs aren't human, I guess it's okay to treat them INhumanely by crating them. It's cruel and you know it, you just don't want to change your perceptions, i understand, it is hard for some people... :)

I would "crate" my dog because he had surgery because he broke his leg and he was not at all allowed to wander around and I had to make sure he sat right beside me every minute I was with him. His vet, and she is an amazing M.D. as well and created and used an underwater tredmill similar to what the elderly use when they have hip replacements on him. It was not punishment or because he was tearing things up. That is a different story. I do not use the crate for those purposes and I no longer have it. It did make him slightly aggressive towards other dogs at first because he saw them on the outside and they were "free", but he has overcome that. And, well, I should mention he is a Chocolate Lab and excited and happy would underestimate a description of his personality!
I understand and agree for the most part.

However, Wikepedia is not a credible source for a definition or anything at all for that matter. I can create a definition for my name on there!

I have never had my dogs in a crate. I can tell you the way around potty training without a crate is don't be lazy and get up every couple of hours and train your puppy. I have done this with our dog and our newest puppy. We leave the doors to the rooms (bathrooms & bedrooms) in our house closed when we aren't home, but other than that our 2 dogs have free roam. They have pee pads in the kitchen to go potty. At night they sleep with me in my bed. If you don't wan't them in your bed, buy them there own to sleep in. I think of my dogs like my kids and I sure wouldn't put them in a cage. Bottom line is if you don't have time to train them, walk them, etc then don't get a dog. Maybe a fish would be a better fit.

"Do unto others as you would want others to do unto you." When I see people keep their dogs outside in extreme temperatures, I keep thinking, "I wish that the owners of the dog would be kept outside for a little while, see how they would feel." Similarly, when I see poor creatures crated in crates they cannot even turn around in, I think to myself, "The person who placed the dog in the crate should stay in there for a few hours." No bathroom privileges, no room to walk around to prevent a cramped leg, deep vein thrombosis (blood clot in a limb from lack of use), not being able to relieve himself. What kind of life is that? Imprisonment? Often, water is not even provided so, "the dog would not suffer, would not have to go to the bathroom." If a person cannot treat a dog with respect and dignity, that person should never have a dog. Nobody is holding a gun to anybody's had, "Thou shalt have a dog." Having a dog mandates responsibility. If one cannot stay out in freezing temperatures for hours, one should not leave a dog outside. If one cannot stay isolated, cramped up in a cage, for many hours on end, do not put a dog in there. Often, parents before spanking children would ominously state, "This will hurt me more than it will hurt you," and "This is for your own good." This is for those who reason that being locked up in cages is for the dogs' own good.

Tunde Mirandilla

I think that using a crate is just the 'convenient' route that dog owners choose when they do not want, or do not have the time, to put effort into proper training, because any dog can be house trained, find security in a home and have his or her own private area to relax in without being crated. One of the most common excuses I've heard for using a crate is that the user is away from home or at work during a period of time when nobody can watch the dog and they are afraid he or she will mess the house - if that is your fear all you have to do is housetrain the dog (or provide him or her with a doggy door)and if you do not have time to put the effort in, or if the dog is being left for long periods of time maybe you should reconsider whether a dog is the right companion for you after all and even if you're suitable to care for an animal companion at all.

I believe the only time when crating is acceptable is for safe transport in a car or other vehicle (I say vehicle because most airlines require a traveling dog to be crated, but I question whether it is good for your dogs emotional health and wellbeing to fly at all and would not recommend it, especially for something as trivial as a holiday, unless you are moving to a new area and it is truly necessary), but even then a dog harness/seatbelt especially designed for your dog's use is a far safer alternative as it gives your beloved friend a chance to escape or be rescued in the event of a car accident - how scared would you be if a car crashed and you were within the wreckage, imprisoned in a cage?

Dogs are social creatures and when we take them into our homes, we should take them into our hearts and that means providing them with the love, care and companionship they need - not imprisoning them in a crate all day and then expecting them to happily greet us on our return, though it must be said that the admirable loyalty of our dogs is greatly undeserved because even those crated dogs will still love their 'owners' and to me that's very, very sad.

Just to add to what I have already said, another justification for crates is that dogs, likes wolves, retain the den instinct. Um hello, the house that they live in is the den! How else can a house be described when compared to a wild wolf's living quarters? If you have children you child proof the home right? You never stop watching them when they're very young, you don't leave them alone for even a minute if you are a responsible parent. You certainly don't put them in a cage and toddle off for the day do you? I feel that more people need to be aware that the responsibilities of dog care are similar to those of having a young child. Until you can trust your dog in what should definitely be a dog-proofed home then you shouldn't leave it! The same rules apply for young children. You wouldn't cage a young child to stop it messing the carpet and hurting iself would you? You wouldn't because it's 'cruel', you raise your child to know how to look after itself and how to clean up and use a bathroom, so why cage a dog instead of training it? Because it's 'convenient'?

KP,
Stick to your guns on this one. All the people responding that their dog's LOVE their crate, or that dog proofing the house is too difficult are just proving your point that they are too lazy to have a dog as a pet. If it was a child they would child-proof things(hopefully), but it's too much trouble for the dog. You mentioned in your story why the dogs end up going to their crate, it's because they have given up on the owners and feel safer in the crate, yet person after person says how much their dog will go lay in the crate by choice...I'm not sure I would want to brag about that. Perhaps these people that claim to love their animals but in reality don't have the time, energy, or love for them should get a cat or some other easier to care for animal.

I grew up with a dog. We didn't put her in a box to train her. We did it ourselves.

If you're too busy / disabled / whatever to train or take care of your dog, don't get a dog, or don't get such a huge dog, at least. Not being able to care for a pit bull doesn't mean you can't get a pet at all. Cats are nice. And smaller dogs won't chew electrical wires.

Whether you believe the cited article is true or not, "crating" is still "putting a dog in a box and leaving it there." What about that is acceptable behavior?

I live outside of Philadelphia. Several years ago, a large water pipe flooded the basements of the homes within a block or two radius in the downtown section of the city. There was a least one story of a dog crated in a basement while the owner was at work. I believe the Stockholm Syndrome reference is apt and articulates how I've felt about crates these past years. Much appreciated.

While crating should never be abused, I think that it is simply irresponsible not to crate train a dog, if only to have them become familiar with it in the event that they require hospitalization. That in itself can be VERY stressful for our four legged friends. Compound that with thier having no experience with a crate and you have just made a stressful situation more stressful. I am the biggest animal lover you could ever find and to not prepare your canine friend for something like that is very shortsighted.

We have had dogs for over 20 years and all have been crate trained. They spent more time in the crates as puppies as we could not have them roaming the house at night and had to keep doors open as we had kids to keep an eye on as well, but the crate was always next to my bed. As they grew up, the crates were folded up and stored away, however if the need ever arose, (which is rarely), we could crate our dogs with confidence, knowing that it does not freak them out. My little schnauzer had to spend several days at the vets a few weeks ago, and I was grateful that he was able to be crated with less stess as it was not a foreign experience to him.

I have a minature dachsund that I stay at home with. We have a crate for her althought I took the door off and put memory foam inside with blankets. Some days she will nap in there for a few hours, if she isn't sleeping on the couch with a blanket. And at night she starts out in our bed than after a couple of hours gets down and goes into her crate for the rest of the night. I have tried to keep her in our bed because I like having her with us at night. Should I take the crate away and try to keep her in our bed or get her something else to call her own like a pet bed?

>>>KP's Response:

Hi Michelle,
It sounds like she's fine the way things are since she can come and go as she pleases.
KP

Lindsay's book is referring to "long term" confinement. I wonder what he says about short term confinement, for example, when one is vacuuming or if the dog is at the veterinarian or groomers? Certainly leaving a dog in a crate for hours at a time isn't humane, but if temporary crate training is done in a humane and effective manner, the dog doesn't seek to escape or get aversively aroused. Stockholm syndrome involves people at first fighting back, and if crate training is done properly the dog is happy to be in the crate and playing the crate game each step of the way. Whining and barking never occurs. The dog is given something to do at each step of the way. For example, the dog would be in the crate but working on a messy bone or kong.

As for the "but we don't put children in cages" argument, we have many forms of confinement for children, such as playpens and cribs.
I was in the shower.) W

>>>KP's Response:

Hi,
Lindsay isn't totally against crate-training, unfortunately. His purpose in writing about the negative effects of crate-training is to counteract the rave reviews that crates get from people who think that there's nothing wrong with them.
But if you're going to go to all the trouble to make crate-training so much "fun," why not just train your dog to live nicely in the house to start with? That's what I've always done. It just seems so silly and weird to train a dog to be in a cage.
KP

"I also agree that dogs need boundaries just as children do. Granted, you don't put a child in a crate to establish dominance, but you MUST do that with K-9 friends. The fact is that K-9 are not humans. They exhibit many similar traits, but they are not the same and must be dealt with accordingly.

I SEE NO WAY AROUND USING A CRATE WHILE POTTY-TRAINING. We don't live in a fantasy world where we don't work, shower, or need a bit of time to ourselves. "

Emphasis added by me.

How can there be no other way to potty train a dog or assert dominance (putting your dog at the bottom of the pack) than imprisoning them in a crate when crates have not even been around for that long and the majority of people in the U.K, where I come from don't use them at all! All the puppies I have ever known have not needed a crate to become potty trained in a matter of weeks, and all the obedient dogs I know did not have crate training to learn their place in the pack. Of course it is not necessary! We have been training dogs perfectly for 100's of years and just that proves crate training is not necessary!!
Having a dog is not just about getting a pet, it's a whole new way of life. If you can't cope with that you shouldn't get a dog! Yes people have used crates to success, but does that mean it is fair? People have used choke chains to success but is that fair? of course it isn't! choke chains always risk strangling the dog and causing serious neck problems. The book extract shared above, suggests that there is harm is using a crate and suggestions like this should be met with concern if one really cares about dogs, regardless if the techniques have been personally used in the past. All it takes to assert dominance and potty train is time and patience, like any other aspect of dog training. People are always trying to make their lives more convenient and 'time friendly' but if this extends to the possibility of causing harm to living creatures, then it shouldn't be encouraged in anyway.

I whole heartedly agree with Hugo Pottisch - "locking a child up in a cupboard in order to protect her or him sounds like missing the point? Put the dangerous things in the cupboard and let the child run free." the same should apply with a dog.

Just because somebody crates their dog, doesn't mean they should get defensive of the technique when fault is found in it. If you really care about your dog, you would take any suggestion that your training methods could be harmful seriously, with the welfare of your dog in mind and not as a personal insult.

Hello KP -

As a vegetarian and adopter of animals, I can understand the point you are trying to make. However, I was hoping you would provide an alternative to crating your pet, which you did not. Also, I have had several dogs in my lifetime and not one of them developed any of Lindsay's described symptoms as a result of crating (which I continue to utilize as a pottytraining technique). I also have two kids, who spent their first two to three years in a crib that they were unable to get out of. So I fail to see how, by labeling people as animal-abusers for crating and not providing any alternative, is constructive or helpful.

>>>KP's Response:

Hi Josh,
The alternative to crating is common sense--praise for a jjob well done (peeing and pooping outside), ignoring small mistakes, redirecting bad behavior such as chewing, tons of exercise (especially early in the morning), plenty of opportunity to socialize with other dogs and people, interactive toys (the kind you would throw into the crate), training with treats, puppyproofing, etc. And if you MUST confine a puppy or a dog for some reason, use something larger, like an exercise pen or an entire room gated off with a puppy gate. Did I leave anything out?
KP

Yes Jenn, we do work, shower and other things. And, whoever brought up the playpen thought, this adds to what we are saying. I kept all 3 of my children in a playpen when they were babies. Same difference. They were not abused.
thanks,
Chanda

Chanda,

I agree with you. My dog likes her crate and tends to lay in there quite frequently on her own accord. She is free to roam during the day and night, but I bet if I had a camera up when I am not there she would be in there most of that time with her cat friend.

I also agree that dogs need boundaries just as children do. Granted, you don't put a child in a crate to establish dominance, but you must do that with K-9 friends. The fact is that K-9 are not humans. They exhibit many similar traits, but they are not the same and must be dealt with accordingly.

I see no way around using a crate while potty-training. We don't live in a fantasy world where we don't work, shower, or need a bit of time to ourselves.

>>>KP's Response:

Hi Jenn,
You may not know this, but crates have only been popular for 10 years or so--and only in the U.S. Prior to that, and elsewhere, people housetrained their dogs without crates. So it's simply a matter of whether or not you want to use a humane method or a convenient method. Americans are all about convenience--even at their expense of their own "beloved" dogs, unfortunately. It's very, very sad.
KP

KP:

So what do you recommend is done with the dog when you go out, or when you can't give 100% of your attention to the dog? Dog proofing a house can only go so far, many pups will eat up drywall, furniture, rip up tile, etc. Tethering if one isn't watching is dangerous. A crate or pen allows one to TOTALLY control the environment so the dog can not possibly make a mistake. Chew toys and things to do are provided.

Humans and many other species are taught to tolerate close confinement for brief periods of time. Children sleep in cribs when they are young to prevent night wandering. We sit in the seats of our cars for hours without moving around. Dogs go to the veterinarian (and if they are altered they are in a crate when the walk in and for several hours to be observed) to the groomers, on long trips, to hotels, dog day care and maybe even the animal shelter. Dogs that are not trained to be calm in confinement can panic and injure themselves. It only takes a few days of the crate training game for the dog to tolerate brief close confinement... and then they get it for life. So in an emergency, they are able to be confined. Dogs rescued in hurricane katrina were all crated upon rescue and for days or months afterwards for example. Dogs that haven't been crated before, and who staff doesn't have time to crate train, can rip out there own teeth and cut themselves up attempting to escape. Dogs who are crate trained will be calm.

Some of these are places a dog will have to go to a few times in their lives. Some are places a dog may go never, but it helps to be prepared for an emergency should one arise.

>>>KP's Response:

Hi,
I just don't buy it. I guess never having crate-trained any of my eight dogs and seven foster dogs and never having seen any of them panicking while at the vet for surgery or illness and never having had anything worse than books or furniture chewed up by puppies, I just can't see the need for it. I think that the whole idea of preparing a dog to be comfortable in a crate is overrated. There are all kinds of things that can happen to dogs or people in life--do we prepare for all of them? That seems to reflect an attitude of fear. I don't want to live in fear; I don't think it's healthy.
When it comes to dogs, I think their best defense in life is a good psychological foundation that will teach them to deal with anything that comes their way. And locking them inside a crate, especially as a puppy, is not going to further that goal.
Oh, and again, the best way to prevent all that destruction by puppies is to give them lots of exercise early in the day.
And anyone who feels that they "have to" leave a puppy alone for an entire workday has no business adopting a puppy. I'm sorry, but that is just too selfish. Your sentence "A crate or pen allows one to TOTALLY control the environment so the dog can not possibly make a mistake" gives me the impression that you're a total perfectionist who can't tolerate a single accident or a single chewed-up sock. In my opinion, people who feel that way really shouldn't live with dogs, because dogs need a little leeway in our strange human world. Let's not turn them into robots.
KP

I don't agree with your opinion...
First off, I love my dog!
He is happy and balanced, walks a hour and a half a day, plays throughout the day with me and my fiancé, interacts well at the dog park and with visitor dogs, and is wonderful with people.

I purchased a cage/kennel when I first brought home my rescue home; I thought we might need it for potty training. Being a rescued hunting beagle, being in a crate didn't phase him (most small hunting hounds are kept in rabbit hutch type cages) and he still went to the bathroom in it.
After that I only used the thing once or twice, for very short periods (15minutes short), mostly to keep him off the floor while cleaning.
We still kept the crate though because he likes to use it on his own. He uses it to take naps in, store toys in it, and as a get away when he wants to not play with kids that visit.
He has other beds, 3 actually, is allowed in every room in the house, is allowed on our furniture, and sleeps in bed with me every night, but he still enjoys the solitude and confinement of the crate.
I agree that no dog should be confined to a crate day in and day out. No one should leave their dog in such a small space while they go off to work, put up puppy gates, take things off the floor, or hire a dog walker. It's easy to avoid crating your dog for a long time. But I also agree with the above comment, it's a good idea to keep a crate around as a personal space for your pup, in case of emergency, or if you have unsafe things going on in your house (cleaning chemicals, moving furniture, etc.). Crates aren’t devices of abuse if used properly.

Also, this is the first time I've visited your blog, but do you usually respond to every single challenging comment? That must get tiring.

>>>KP's Response:

Hi Knena,
Yes, it IS tiring--especially since this isn't my primary job! But it's important to me, so I try to keep up. :-)
Well, it sounds like your dog is using his crate as a true den, with the door open all the time, so I have no objections to that. Your dog is very lucky to have such a good life with you and your fiancé.
The other situations that you mentioned--hazardous activities in the house--can all be handled by putting a dog into a separate room. That's what I've always done. There's no need for tight confinement ever, as far as I can see.
KP

Commenting on the comment below:
10 years ago the US was not like it is today. When I was growing up most of the moms stayed home while the dads worked. Today it takes two incomes to run one house. Life int he US is not as easy as it used to be. It is a hard life. Would my dog rather be dead than sleep in his crate? Oh please, what a drama queen statement. Kids have to go to after school care, and before school care, adult moms have to go to work and then race home cook, clean bla bla bla. It's a tough life. My dogs sleep through the 5 hours they are in their crate when I have to go out to work, or when it is open on the weekends, no difference. I don't think a dog rather be dead than sleep in a crate. To them it is not a cage, it is their bed. And let me say again, that people who would be adopting possibly won't now after reading this BS about crates. Comparing crates to cages. THis is the real world. We would all like to stay home and site by our dogs' side. WHy, I would even like to cook for my dog too, but sorry, I have to work.
The only apples and oranges here are comparing time spent in a crate that is for safety for both the dog and the house etc. or prolonged periods in a crate with little activity and contact. Two different things. My dogs are happy and healthy, are out of their crate far more than they are in it, and I highly doubt they "rather be dead."

Blessings,
Chanda

Hi Jenn,
You may not know this, but crates have only been popular for 10 years or so--and only in the U.S. Prior to that, and elsewhere, people housetrained their dogs without crates. So it's simply a matter of whether or not you want to use a humane method or a convenient method. Americans are all about convenience--even at their expense of their own "beloved" dogs, unfortunately. It's very, very sad.
KP

One chewed up sock, ONE injested sock, can cause a blockage in a young dog and kill them, if the 5 thousand dollar surgery doesn't save them.

One mistake in the house leads to many more mistakes in the house.

By not allowing a dog to make a mistake, by managing their behavior, we can prevent future mistakes. If a dog develops a taste for sofa or socks, you can bet he'll seek those things out. So, we confine a puppy that isn't being watched so that they learn the correct behaviors, that you chew your chew toys, you pee on the pee pad in your x-pen etc. Then, after a week or two of making them chew toy and pee pad addicts, they can have more free reign. I feel this is far more humane than yelling or telling "NO!" which a dog doesn't understand (they understand that you are dangerous at that moment) I have never once told my dog NO, or loomed at him. He has been taught a great "trade ya" aka drop it.

I am wondering how many puppies you raised from a very young age? How many of the dogs you raised were under the age of one? Under the age of two? Were any relinquised because they had severe destructive problems in the home?

Puppy proofing can only go so far. I've had friends who have come home to their door being chewed apart, their dog eating the couch, or in one awful case, dead because she choked on a rug.

Giving a dog exercise early in the day may or may not prevent destruction. I know my dog needs MANY hours of exercize each day to help him sleep on the days I'm at work for 5 hours (2 days a week.) Many dogs who are puppies and adolescents need multiple hours of heavy exercize, and even after this they are still hyper and active, waiting for the next adventure.

The number one reason for people surrendering dogs to shelters is for behavioral problems, specifically those related to house soiling and house destruction. These dogs (if the owners are surveyed) are almost always traditionally trained, that is, let them have free reign of the house and then yell at them or correct them if they do something "naughty". This creates a dog who likes to eat table legs and socks behind ones back.

Anyway, I hope I gave you some constructive ideas. And, I'm not a perfectionist by any means, but, when it comes to my dogs safety, I am.

Intestinal blockage is one of the top 3 reasons why people visit emergency vets. Confinement when a dog isn't supervised is a great way to prevent this problem from developing, so that the dog may have free reign of the home in a few short weeks.

>>>KP's Response:

Hi ... um ... what's your name?
Let's see, my first dog was under 2 months when I adopted her off the street. My second dog was about 5 months old (also off the street), my third dog was 1 year old (from a cruelty/dog dealer investigation), my fourth dog was about 5 months old (a neglected dog rescued by the SPCA), my fifth dog was about a year old (a neglected backyard dog from a neighbor), my sixth dog was a year old (from an SPCA), my seventh dog was 2 years old (from an SPCA), and my eighth dog was 7 years old (from a neighbor). All the fosters have been at least 2 years old. So you see, I'm not without experience.
I do appreciate your concern for the safety of dogs--I couldn't agree more. But I don't think we need to exaggerate the danger to the point of locking them in cages. Puppyproofing IS possible. Socks belong in a sock drawer, for example. And there is no need to yell at dogs in order to train them--that's not the only alternative to a crate. Again, let's not exaggerate.
KP

I have a newly rescued 14 month old Airedale terrier. Her previous owners didn't take her for many walks and she quickly learned to take her pent up energy out on other things. She too, eats socks. But not just socks, everything she can get her mouth on. Apart from that, she's a very clever dog and very big. I have regularly seen her jump over pens, or even open doors! The result: when she's not in her crate she is not allowed out of my sight. She's much calmer in her crate then she would be in a large pen where she jump over. Since she's out of her crate most of the time, we have puppy proofed everything. However, she even will try to chew on furniture. Is there not only so far we can go? Until she grows out of it, and is trained better, the crate is very necessary and she's safer in there then she is out and around chewing on things.

Another thing, what about dogs with separation anxiety? I've heard horror stories about dogs who will tear things apart to get to their 'moms and dads'. My aunt's foster dog has separation anxiety. He's a wonderful dog, but, if left in a room to his own devices, he'll go crazy. Unfortunately, although much improved, he'll always have a certain degree of separation anxiety. Maybe in the past crates were not used as much. But if used properly, it gives certain dogs more of a chance to get a good home. In the past, without a crate, I wouldn't have owned either of the dogs I now do.

>>>KP's Response:

Hi Marie,
I wonder if the dog with separation anxiety got it from being confined to a crate as a puppy. That can happen.
How long is the Airedale walking in the morning? Have you tried taking her for an hour-long walk in the morning? I bet that would help tire her out. Once or twice around the block isn't good enough.
I think all that chewing and destructiveness is caused by anxiety--just like the separation anxiety. Stuffing these dogs into crates isn't getting to the root of the problem--in fact, it's probably intensifying it.
KP

ALRIGHT~
I say, o.k. if your going to have a crate
lEAVE IT OPEN AT ALL TIMES, 24/7 so the DOG CAN COME AND GO AS HE/SHE WANTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Other wise what is the point of having a pet if you don't let it be apart of the Family?!?!?!?!?!
WHY DID YOU GET A PET, IF YOU DON'T GO IN TO IT KNOWING IT WILL TAKE TIME,PATIENTS AND LOTS OF PETTING AND LOVING AND HUMAN CONTACT FOR THE REST OF IT'S LIFE!?!?!?!!?
WY,WHY,WHY!!!!!!!!!!!
LOVE YOUR PETS, OR DON'T GET ONE!!!!!!!!

My apartment is puppy-proofed and my landlord is gracious enough to allow pets-and my dog who wasn;t crated tore up the carpeting. My dogs love their crates-and I have an insecure dog who needs one as his refuge.

Bottom line-my dogs get to sleep on blankets with water and snacks in a box with music on while I pay the bills and go to work. I would love to trade for a day.

I have a dog walker to break up the day too.

I believe the dog with separation anxiety got a lot of attention as a puppy, but none around six months old. That's how the separation anxiety came about. I take my Airedale for two walks a day. One in the morning and one at night. Both are long walks. Some times, my parents will take her jogging. After a mile and a half of jogging, then playing in the backyard some, she still chews on things. I have been working with her a lot, and she's doing better. But her previous owners expected her to be a lapdog and never exercised her. I'm not expecting a crate to solve either of those problems. But, since both dogs are getting better rather than worse, it's not hurting them. My aunt's foster will probably always need a crate handy. My airedale probably won't. But my Airedale is calmer in her crate with toys and a blanket then being leashed to me 24/7. My my dog really likes to chew on things and I don't want her to get hurt by swallowing the wrong things. As I said before, although I love both my dogs very much, without a crate, both my dogs and I would be having more problems then we are now. The crate has yet to harm my dogs in any way.

>>>KP's Response:

Hi Marie,
That's what I thought. A mile and a half? That's nothing to an energetic dog. Your Airedale needs a REAL walk every morning.
Also, there are lots of acceptable chew toys that you can fill with delicious things for your dog to work on for hours. Are you using them? They are much more appealing to dogs than furniture.
I think it's very sad that a dog who is clearly frustrated is being forced to "stuff it" inside a crate instead of having someone address the root of his troubles. I feel sorry for him. You're just using a shortcut that's easy for you. How about lengthening that walk in the morning instead of putting him in lockup?
KP

I would love to give my dog hours and hours of walks every morning. But, I have schoolwork to do and I can't spend two hours every morning and night taking my dog for a walk. She needs mental energy as well as physical energy every day. And when she's tired there's nothing she likes to do more then curl up in a chair with a good shoe. She gets at least one kong a day to chew on. Some times she even gets more. And while it keeps her busy for a good long while, eventually, she'll finish and wander off to a sock this time. When she is at that point, I try a couple of different things. I give her something else to chew on, or I distract her into something else. Because of this, she's quickly learning what is allowed to be chewed to pieces, and what isn't. However, after taking care of my dogs, I need to take care of myself. There's not enough room in my bathroom for an 80 pound Airedale. And I need her in my sight constantly. That's when the crate comes in handy, and the kong. A crate to a dog is like a bed to a human. Your bed is comfortable, safe, the perfect size, and it is an awful lot like a den would be to a dog. To humans that cage looks really tiny and cruel. To a dog, it is their den and a safe zone. Dog dens aren't a huge and don't tunnel like a rabbit warren might. They're just right for the size of the dog. The only difference between a den and a crate, is one is above ground and the other in underground.

>>>KP's Response:

Hi Marie,
I'm glad you finally owned up to the fact that you're using the crate as a shortcut because you can't be bothered to give your Airedale what she really needs, which is more exercise. I'm sorry, but I truly feel that people with such a selfish attitude should not have dogs. You can't possibly be busier or have more obligations than I do, but I get all six of my dogs walked almost every single day. Why? Because it's important to them. It's the highlight of their day. And when they don't get a walk, it really matters to them. You can keep trying to convince yourself and others that a crate is something positive, but it's no substitute for meeting a dog's basic needs.
KP

I owned up to what? Maybe you misunderstood? A crate is absolutely no substitute for a dog's basic needs. I totally agree with you. That's why, if my dog has a ton of energy, I don't put her in her crate. It will only infuriate her. Are you saying I shouldn't have a dog because she goes in her crate when I can't watch her? Which is more irresponsible, putting her in her crate when I can't watch her? I mean, sure, she doesn't have to go in that tiny crate, but what about that pencil she just swallowed? Is that healthy for her? Or maybe I should never put her in her crate? The bottom line is, when used in a correct way, a crate is a positive, not a negative. And it's not difficult to use a crate in the right way. With my first dog I wasn't home all day long. Now there were a couple options for me. I could leave her out in a large pen and hope she doesn't get out, and hope she doesn't go to the bathroom on the floor. (She wasn't totally housebroken at the time) Or, I can put her in her crate with blankets, toys, and I know she'll be safe, happy, and can't get out or go to the bathroom. Things would have been a bit more difficult without a crate, huh? Now I could have handled it. But what if I hadn't adopted her? Think about how difficult it would have been for other people. My poor dog could have been put down just because she needed someone to watch her 24/7. How many families would have been able or willing to do that? I'm sorry you think crates are a bad thing, and I'm glad that your dogs haven't needed one yet.

>>>KP's Response:

Hi Marie,
It truly baffles me how everyone thinks they're entitled to get a dog even when their personal circumstances are not conducive to a dog's needs.
KP

I totally agree! It's a good thing we're both responsible people who know how to take care of dogs. Even if we don't agree with each other's techniques.

I find it funny when you say "how would you li