What a beautiful story. Little Nicky reminds me of my beloved dog, Alice, who is no longer with me except in spirit. Thanks so much for posting it, Peter. It touched my heart.

Hey KP. I was wondering if there was any way we could discuss your views on crates. I have a few concerns about some of your feelings on crates... mainly because I feel that every dog should be crate trained. I personally do not have a crate in my home, have never crated my puppy as a containment solution in the home... but we have worked on crate training. I feel it is essential for every dog to be crate trained, as they will need to be crated if they are in an accident and need to be immobilized to heal, and if they go to a veterinarian or day care. Crating can also be a safer option than a seatbelt in some cars. Crating is also a safer way than tethering to teach a dog that it is OK to be with oneself when the guardian is home. Crating can also be a wonderful way to help give a puppy a break from the hustle and bustle of a busy household. In the dog day care that I work at we use only dog-friendly methods with our dogs. We use crating as a very important way to give dogs a quiet place to take a nap, or a way to have a 5-10 minute calm down if they become too aroused during play or pick-up. Dogs that are not crate trained are at a disadvantage, as they are not able to go into this quiet space for a cool down or much needed nap.

Let me know what you think!
Gia

>>>KP's Response:

Hi Gia!
Thanks for sharing your views.
I can see that you have integrated crating into almost every aspect of your job, but I don't think you listed anything that can't be accomplished in another way, without a crate. For example, giving a dog a quiet space to take a nap doesn't have to involve close confinement, does it?
Regarding keeping a dog confined because of an injury, when I was in that situation, I used a playpen, which was much more comfortable than a crate. An exercise pen would work also, perhaps with an open crate inside it so that the dog or puppy has the choice of whether or not to use it.
And I certainly can't see confining a dog to a crate over and over again as "practice" for just in case they have to spend the night at the vet's someday. Any dog who is sick enough to be spending the night at the vet's most likely isn't going to care about being in a cage.
Unfortunately, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.
KP

Hey KP...
At at our day care, most dogs will RUN to their crates when they hear the word. Many dogs have been taught to go to the crate and stay their until a verbal release with the door open the whole time. This is all done voluntarily by the dog. We teach dogs that the crate predicts wonderful things. Why is short term close confinement wrong, when the dog will actively seek it, find it enjoyable, and sleep the whole time?

Unfortunately there is no way in a day care setting to provide 10 dogs at a time with a quiet space to take a nap that doesn't involve close confinement. It would greatly reduce the dogs' play space to create 10 individual walled rooms for napping. In addition, a crate gives us the ability to use curtains so that the dog isn't visually overstimulated by all the activity that is going on during their individual nap... a playpen can not do this, the dog can still see out and other dogs can see in AND jump in to bother the napping dog. We do have two playpens for some dogs that can not be crated, but this is a great disadvantage to them because they can still see all the play going on, and are therefore not able to as quickly settle down for a nap. These dogs also receive the daily exercise that dogs should be getting, (hours and hours of it) and so once in the crate are relaxed and happy to snooze. I know 99% or more of American dogs are exercised an insufficient hour a day or less, usually in the form of a walk, which is NOT exercise to a dog. My dog is exercised at day care 12 hours 3 days a week, is taken on short runs (jogging is harmful to dogs under 2) and goes to the dog park when he isn't at day care. We also play fetch and tug for around an hour on non-day care days. My dog sleeps most of the time when he isn't playing with me. Did you know that most dog's sleep 13-16 hours a day? That means that if a dog is being confined for an hour and is well exercised, they are most likely using that time to relax and sleep. They aren't sitting up crying, and wanting to get out. They are passed out.

While a playpen may be adequate for recovery from some surgeries, I know it isn't in some cases. A dog who is in a playpen can still jump up and walk around to their hearts desire. These two things can be very detrimental to a dog recovering from certain surgeries.

In addition, dogs must spend time in a crate or kennel during many routine procedures that do NOT require an overnight visit. This includes altering, tooth removal, dental cleaning, etc. Dogs that are not crate trained need to be sedated, or worse, injure themselves in a panic.
I would be very surprised if none of your dogs spent time in a crate when they were spayed and neutered. My dog has had to be in a crate for his neutering, to get a retained tooth pulled, and to have stitches.

So, though I don't have a crate in my home, I firmly believe all dogs should be taught to LOVE being confined in close quarters. It is fun to teach them for them and us, and, it could come in very handy sometime. Do I believe that dogs should be confined when they don't want to be, or won't sleep... no? But for my dog, who gets hours of heart pounding cardio a day, a crate is simply a nap space.
If he or ANY of the dogs in day care wake up and become agitated and want to come out, then they are asked to sit and let out.

So, once again, if the dog doesn't mind, if the dog is sleeping, what does it matter if the dog is in a crate, tethered to a bed, or in a playpen?

Gia

>>>KP's Response:

Hi Gia,

If most dogs at your daycare center are taught to stay in a crate with the door open until they get a verbal release, then why do you ever have to shut the crate door on them? I have nothing against an open crate. It's the locking inside that I oppose.
With regard to naptime for your 10 resident dogs, I don't see why you couldn't hang blankets or curtains on the sides of the playpens and give all the dogs playpens (or exercise pens for dogs who jump) instead of crates. It's just a matter of being creative.
I think it's FABULOUS that you exercise your dog so much. He is a lucky, lucky dog. But if he's really so exhausted and passed out from all the exercise, why do you have to confine him? Why would a sleeping dog need to be confined?
Please name one surgery for which recovery absolutely requires crate confinement over something roomier like a playpen. I can't think of one, and I don't think there is one, because they didn't even have crates 20 years ago, but they had surgery. My late German shepherd, Koro, had surgery to repair a crushed vertebra after she got hit by a car in 1980 and then, much later, surgery to remove a growth from her eyelid, and she was never confined during her recovery for either of those. My late cocker spaniel, Rogan, had surgery for a ruptured disc in 1994 and he stayed in a playpen or other gated area, not a crate, for five weeks. He also had dental surgery later in life and a toe amputation in 2003 and was not confined at all for either of those. My late Dobie, Shandy, had surgery to remove a hemangiosarcoma in 2003, and he wasn't confined after that. I've had six of my eight dogs spayed or neutered (two were already neutered when I adopted them), and I didn't confine any of them, except for separating Sunny from Dexter because he wanted to play with her after her surgery, but there were never any crates or even playpens involved. I think maybe people go overboard nowadays with all the precautions, and meanwhile they're not paying attention to the things that really matter when it comes to a dog's health. People will keep a dog in a crate for safety's sake, but then they go out and buy the cheapest possible kibble and subject the dog to yearly vaccinations, both of which are much more detrimental, in my view, than free run of a puppyproofed home.
I'll say it again: Dogs aim to please. Just because dogs go along with what you ask them to do doesn't mean that they like it. It means that they want to please you.
KP

"If most dogs at your daycare center are taught to stay in a crate with the door open until they get a verbal release, then why do you ever have to shut the crate door on them? I have nothing against an open crate. It's the locking inside that I oppose."

We close the crate door to keep other dogs who are still in a play mode out of the sleeping dogs' space. It gives them their own calm space where they are safe to sleep without interruption. In addition, during pick up many dogs become overwhelmed by a strange human, they go in the crate for five minutes to prevent them from becoming upset, to prevent them from possibly having redirected defensevness against another dog. Getting a dog into a playpen, and then reshaping the playpen, putting up a curtain, etc. for 5 reactive dogs who need daycare would take a long time, time that could be spent caring for a client faster so the dog is out and playing faster.

I'm certain that before and after ALL your dogs went into surgery, they woke up and spent at least several observation hours in a crate... dogs that have not been accustomed to a crate or kennel often need to be sedated, as they panic. A crate trained dog will not panic during these times. Your dogs would have had a great disadvantage from not being confinement trained. Also, for those of us who travel with dogs a crate is an invaluable safety tool. I RV, and a seatbelt wouldn't suffice because their isn't a third seat for the dog. Also, in an accident the crate would keep household object from falling on the dog.

"I'll say it again: Dogs aim to please. Just because dogs go along with what you ask them to do doesn't mean that they like it. It means that they want to please you."

Dogs aim to please one person... themselves. Dogs do not have the capability to have an abstract verbal conversation... therefore they do not have any concept of pleasing us "just because". They don't care about our internal states, unless it relates to them. When they do aim to please it's because aiming to please gets them good things, such as pets, treats, food, walkies... etc.

It is possible to train a dog to LOVE their crate, through classical conditioning of pairing wonderful things with the crate. It is also possible to operantly train the dog to find going to the crate to be very rewarding. The dog isn't going into the crate to please their person... when they are trained correctly in a truly humane fashion they go into the crate because it is very rewarding.

So, if the dog actively enjoys the crate, if the dog RUNS with glee to the crate, if the dog remains happily in that crate for a fair amount of time... what's the problem with the crate?

>>>KP's Response:

I'm sorry, Gia, but it appears to me that YOU'RE the one who loves crates, not the dogs, and your obsession with them, judging by the lengths that you are going to in order to justify your use of them, is blinding you to the possibility of doing things in a more humane fashion. You can sugarcoat what you're doing until you're blue in the face, but you will never persuade me that a dog LOVES to be locked in a box. Yes, you can train a dog to tolerate it, but it is only the side benefits (treats, praise, pleasing the human, etc.) that make it tolerable, not the actual confinement and isolation, so let's try to be more accurate.

As for how veterinarians confined some of my dogs before and after they had surgery, all of that happened long before I even began to think about crates., and I regret it if any of them felt uncomfortable. But I don't think that's a good enough reason to make them stay in a crate at home as "practice" on the off-chance that someday they may have to be in a veterinarian's cage. I have always insisted on picking up my dogs as early as possible--I've never agreed to leave them the entire day just for convenience's sake--and I would never leave them at the vet's unless they had a life-threatening condition that I couldn't handle by myself at home, in which case they would be too "out of it" to care where they were being housed anyway.

Your paragraph about dogs' wanting to please only themselves is very cynical. I've seen with my own eyes how altruistic and selfless and generous dogs can be. They also are psychologically "programmed" to want to "please" their pack leader, and not because they get a reward out of it. Canine pack leaders don't offer rewards. It's just a part of a dog's psyche to want to please whomever is in charge. And when I see people exploiting that trait for their own convenience, it really makes me feel bad for the dogs in that person's care.

I hope you will drop your defensiveness and try to look at this issue from a different perspective--the dog's. In the meantime, I think we've thrashed it out about as thoroughly as we can, so let's just do as I said in my first response and agree to disagree.
Thanks for participating!
KP

Hey Gia,
It's possible to use operant (not classical) conditioning to teach a dog to love just about anything YOU want. That's just using psychology against them, and it doesn't make it fair or right.

I find it interesting that no dog loves to be locked in a box, but it's fine to lock them in a small metal pen. That's a funny prejudice among many I've seen.

Is it because most people use crates inhumanely, and don't bother with pens? If pens started entering the mainstream, and people left their dogs alone for 16 hours a day in a pen that they couldn't even turn around in, that would be more "humane" than a comfortable crate that a dog likes to go into and chew on toys in? It apparently has nothing to do with size, because pens are comfortable and ok, period, and crates are bad, period. What about a pen shaped like a rectangle, so it resembles a box too? Is that good or bad? What if a toy dog is in a XXL crate? Hell, what if someone builds a 12' x 12' x 12' crate with sides only? Is that more like a good pen or an evil crate?

If you're against confinement, be consistent about it. Confinement is confinement, whether the "prison" is a box, a pen, a chain, or *gasp* a leash or house. Being involuntarily confined (even inside an entire house) can elicit suffering. Voluntarily going into a confining space that is comfortable, because one wants the benefits of going inside, does not.

I have nothing against a pen, crate, tether, leash, or any other restraint if it is physically comfortable and the animal chooses to be that way. If not, there is cost-benefit analyzing to do, but that's another topic.

I oppose "practicing" by dragging a dog into a crate, locking the door, then ignoring him/her for hours until s/he gives up hope. I don't oppose teaching a dog that going into a crate and having the door closed can be a nice thing, with positive reinforcement training, free of deprivation, coercion, or any physical force.

Sure, there is a "side benefit" to anything, if you want to put it that way. The dog isn't eating food because the dog likes to eat the food per se--the dog is tolerating eating the food because of the side benefits of tasting something pleasant and alleviating hunger sensations. So we should never give dogs food? Don't call our dogs to us, since they'd only be coming for the side benefits of attention/petting? Can you not see how absurd that reasoning is?

Dogs' point of view, ok. If they could somehow read all this and say explicitly in English what they think, anyway :P

Dog A: My mom is a kind, loving, well-intentioned lady. She understands me and my nature, and works with me instead of against me. She communicates what should be done, and I do it voluntarily because it gets me wonderful things like treats and petting. She knows that I have no way of reading her mind to see what she "wants," so that even if I wanted to do what she wanted just for the hell of it, it would be impossible for me. She knows that clear communication is the key. Besides, while I guess I am a pretty nice dog, and modest too!, I do live my life for myself, as everyone should do, and I am self-motivated, as all beings are. I try to make decisions for my own well-being. Look at my mom! She's spent time, money, and effort volunteering, fostering, educating, and doing lots of things to help others. But she does that because it is her own choice, and while I don't know what it is, she must get something good out of it, like having an outlet to express her love, following her urges to alleviate the suffering around her, or fulfilling her desire to have a good life. But she is not "selfless." She has a self. And she won't do a 9 to 5 volunteer shift for no compensation just because someone expects her to "please" them. She knows it's the same for us.

Dog B: My mom is a kind, loving, well-intentioned lady. She does not understand me. She believes in myths started by observing wildlife of another species who were trapped and put into confinement that they did *not* voluntarily choose. She thinks I am selfless and do things just because I want to please her. Sure, I don't wish any ill on her, but in reality I won't do anything just because she wants me to! As if. But she expects me to want to do that, and read her mind to do that. Yeah, mom, I'm great at understanding the desires of some alien species. If I don't know what she's asking me to do, or if I do know but decide I'd rather do something else, she thinks I'm a crazy dog. According to her, she is the ultimate boss, and us dogs should do things we dislike just because we aim to please her. She's a bit full of herself, thinking we are her followers worshipping the ground she walks on. She doesn't bother making things actually worth our time, she just assumes any of her whims or desires are always worth our time. We just think of her as another nice being we hang out with, but if we ever act like ourselves, in a way that conflicts with her image of what we're supposed to be like, she thinks we're abnormal dogs. Or maybe we're challenging her for her dominance rank because we're obsessed with climbing up in some nonexistent heirarchy.

From their perspective, who lives in a better family?

Everyone learns by conditioning, mimicry, etc. What's wrong with teaching a dog to like a crate because you want to? The dog might instead be taught to like the kitchen, because that's where food is, and the dog associates the kitchen with food. Is this wrong and unfair? Your brain is processing stimuli and changing constantly. It happens whether you like it or not. If you just make no effort to direct your or someone else's behavior in a way that you want, that's using psychology for them, but if you do make an effort, it's using psychology against them? So everyone should refrain from doing anything that they know will affect someone else's behavior?

Crap, I better not be writing this, because I know it will affect the brains of whoever is reading this, and it's using psychology against them -_- And I need to stop putting food in the kitchen, because everyone knows that's where food is! I'm using psychology against them, knowing that they will associate the kitchen with food! The rules of behavior rules our lives in unfair and cruel ways :( The horror...the behavior of opening the fridge has been sometimes reinforced with the finding of edible tasty food (operant conditioning) which I associate with the pleasure of eating (classical conditioning). Who dared use operant and classical conditioning against me, with an object (the fridge) that is as evil as a crate?

If you say you never influence someone else's (or your own) behavior, you are lying.

Oh my gosh, why are all you pro-crating people so INSANE?

"All you"? All two? o.O

In an insane world the idiots can fit in comfortably while the good sane people are driven insane ;)

Well, if that's all you can say in response, my case should rest. Maybe with a favorite blanket and chew toy. In a crate.

In the meantime, I will shed no tears over the way my cats run to the kitchen at the sound of a can opener, despite my evil manipulations at work to force them to do so. Classical conditioning is terrible.

I wish you well, Ms. My-brain-isn't-affected-by-anything.

I agree with KP about the crating issue. It seems like you, Gia, need to take a time out in one of your miraculous crates and see how it feels. Confinement is confinement...restraint, supression. It's all negative treatment and should not be used at all.

Wow, insane and starved for attention. Maybe Gia and Weatherlight were confined and ignored the way crated dogs are when they were kids.
Just FYI, this is an animal rights blog. Do you really think someone who's working to get rats, chickens, pigs, bunnies, etc. out of cages is going to tell you it's ok to put your dog in one?

Sure, why not? That particular someone is telling me it's ok to put your dog in a pen. Is that as bad as putting a steer in a feedlot?